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	<title>Kommentare zu: Dateien sicher löschen mit shred</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/</link>
	<description>Blog von Michael Butschek</description>
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		<title>Von: linuxnetzer</title>
		<link>http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>linuxnetzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 10:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.butschek.de/?p=434#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Oh, du scheinst da eine andere Version der manpage von wipe zu haben. 
Die Version 0.21, die ich meine enthält folgende Beschreibung:

(...)
DESCRIPTION
       Recovery of supposedly erased data from magnetic media is  easier  than
       what  many  people  would  like to believe. A technique called Magnetic
       Force Microscopy (MFM) allows any moderately funded opponent to recover
       the  last  two or three layers of data written to disk; wipe repeatedly
       overwrites special patterns to the files to  be  destroyed,  using  the
       fsync()  call  and/or  the  O_SYNC  bit to force disk access. In normal
       mode, 34 patterns are used (of which 8 are random). These patterns were
       recommended   in   an  article  from  Peter  Gutmann  (pgut001@cs.auck‐
       land.ac.nz) entitled &quot;Secure Deletion of Data from Magnetic and  Solid-
       State Memory&quot;. A quick mode allows you to use only 4 passes with random
       patterns, which is of course much less secure.


NOTE ABOUT JOURNALING FILESYSTEMS AND SOME RECOMMENDATIONS (JUNE 2004)
       Journaling filesystems (such as Ext3 or ReiserFS) are now being used by
       default  by  most Linux distributions.  No secure deletion program that
       does filesystem-level calls can sanitize  files  on  such  filesystems,
       because  sensitive  data  and  metadata  can be written to the journal,
       which cannot be readily accessed.  Per-file secure deletion  is  better
       implemented in the operating system.

       Encrypting  a  whole  partition  with cryptoloop, for example, does not
       help very much either, since there is a single key for all  the  parti‐
       tion.

       Therefore  wipe is best used to sanitize a harddisk before giving it to
       untrusted parties (i.e. sending your laptop for repair, or selling your
       disk).   Wiping  size issues have been hopefully fixed (I apologize for
       the long delay).

       Be aware that harddisks are quite intelligent beasts those days.   They
       transparently  remap  defective  blocks.   This means that the disk can
       keep  an  albeit  corrupted  (maybe  slightly)  but  inaccessible   and
       unerasable  copy  of  some of your data.  Modern disks are said to have
       about 100% transparent remapping capacity.  You  can  have  a  look  at
       recent discussions on Slashdot.

       I  hereby  speculate that harddisks can use the spare remapping area to
       secretly make copies of your data.  Rising totalitarianism  makes  this
       almost a certitude.  It is quite straightforward to implement some sim‐
       ple filtering schemes that would  copy  potentially  interesting  data.
       Better,  a  harddisk  can  probably  detect  that a given file is being
       wiped, and silently make a copy of it, while  wiping  the  original  as
       instructed.

       Recovering  such data is probably easily done with secret IDE/SCSI com‐
       mands.  My guess is that there are agreements between harddisk manufac‐
       turers  and government agencies.  Well-funded mafia hackers should then
       be able to find those secret commands too.

       Don’t trust your harddisk.  Encrypt all your data.

       Of course this shifts the trust to the computing system, the  CPU,  and
       so  on.   I  guess  there  are also &quot;traps&quot; in the CPU and, in fact, in
       every sufficiently advanced mass-marketed chip.   Wealthy  nations  can
       find those.  Therefore these are mainly used for criminal investigation
       and &quot;control of public dissent&quot;.

       People should better think of their  computing  devices  as  facilities
       lended by the DHS.


IMPORTANT WARNING -- READ CAREFULLY
       The author, the maintainers or the contributors of this package can NOT
       be held responsible in any way if wipe destroys  something  you  didn’t
       want  it  to destroy.  Let’s make this very clear. I want you to assume
       that this is a nasty program that will wipe out  parts  of  your  files
       that  you  didn’t want it to wipe. So whatever happens after you launch
       wipe is your entire responsiblity.  In particular,  no  one  guarantees
       that wipe will conform to the specifications given in this manual page.

       Similarly, we cannot guarantee that wipe will actually erase  data,  or
       that  wiped  data  is not recoverable by advanced means.  So if nasties
       get your secrets because you sold a wiped harddisk to someone you don’t
       know, well, too bad for you.

       The  best way to sanitize a storage medium is to subject it to tempera‐
       tures exceeding 1500K.  As a cheap alternative, you might use  wipe  at
       your  own  risk.  Be  aware that it is very difficult to assess whether
       running wipe on a given file will actually wipe it -- it depends on  an
       awful  lot  of  factors,  such  as  :  the type of file system the file
       resides on (in particular, whether the file system is a journaling  one
       or not), the type of storage medium used, and the least significant bit
       of the phase of the moon.

       Wiping over NFS or over a journalling filesystem (ReiserFS  etc.)  will
       most probably not work.

       Therefore I strongly recommend to call wipe directly on the correspond‐
       ing block device with the  appropriate  options.  However  THIS  IS  AN
       EXTREMELY  DANGEROUS  THING TO DO.  Be sure to be sober. Give the right
       options. In particular : don’t wipe a  whole  harddisk  (eg.  wipe  -kD
       /dev/hda  is  bad) since this will destroy your master boot record. Bad
       idea. Prefer wiping partitions (eg. wipe -kD /dev/hda2) is  good,  pro‐
       vided, of course, that you have backed up all necessary data.
(...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, du scheinst da eine andere Version der manpage von wipe zu haben.<br />
Die Version 0.21, die ich meine enthält folgende Beschreibung:</p>
<p>(&#8230;)<br />
DESCRIPTION<br />
       Recovery of supposedly erased data from magnetic media is  easier  than<br />
       what  many  people  would  like to believe. A technique called Magnetic<br />
       Force Microscopy (MFM) allows any moderately funded opponent to recover<br />
       the  last  two or three layers of data written to disk; wipe repeatedly<br />
       overwrites special patterns to the files to  be  destroyed,  using  the<br />
       fsync()  call  and/or  the  O_SYNC  bit to force disk access. In normal<br />
       mode, 34 patterns are used (of which 8 are random). These patterns were<br />
       recommended   in   an  article  from  Peter  Gutmann  (pgut001@cs.auck‐<br />
       land.ac.nz) entitled &#8220;Secure Deletion of Data from Magnetic and  Solid-<br />
       State Memory&#8221;. A quick mode allows you to use only 4 passes with random<br />
       patterns, which is of course much less secure.</p>
<p>NOTE ABOUT JOURNALING FILESYSTEMS AND SOME RECOMMENDATIONS (JUNE 2004)<br />
       Journaling filesystems (such as Ext3 or ReiserFS) are now being used by<br />
       default  by  most Linux distributions.  No secure deletion program that<br />
       does filesystem-level calls can sanitize  files  on  such  filesystems,<br />
       because  sensitive  data  and  metadata  can be written to the journal,<br />
       which cannot be readily accessed.  Per-file secure deletion  is  better<br />
       implemented in the operating system.</p>
<p>       Encrypting  a  whole  partition  with cryptoloop, for example, does not<br />
       help very much either, since there is a single key for all  the  parti‐<br />
       tion.</p>
<p>       Therefore  wipe is best used to sanitize a harddisk before giving it to<br />
       untrusted parties (i.e. sending your laptop for repair, or selling your<br />
       disk).   Wiping  size issues have been hopefully fixed (I apologize for<br />
       the long delay).</p>
<p>       Be aware that harddisks are quite intelligent beasts those days.   They<br />
       transparently  remap  defective  blocks.   This means that the disk can<br />
       keep  an  albeit  corrupted  (maybe  slightly)  but  inaccessible   and<br />
       unerasable  copy  of  some of your data.  Modern disks are said to have<br />
       about 100% transparent remapping capacity.  You  can  have  a  look  at<br />
       recent discussions on Slashdot.</p>
<p>       I  hereby  speculate that harddisks can use the spare remapping area to<br />
       secretly make copies of your data.  Rising totalitarianism  makes  this<br />
       almost a certitude.  It is quite straightforward to implement some sim‐<br />
       ple filtering schemes that would  copy  potentially  interesting  data.<br />
       Better,  a  harddisk  can  probably  detect  that a given file is being<br />
       wiped, and silently make a copy of it, while  wiping  the  original  as<br />
       instructed.</p>
<p>       Recovering  such data is probably easily done with secret IDE/SCSI com‐<br />
       mands.  My guess is that there are agreements between harddisk manufac‐<br />
       turers  and government agencies.  Well-funded mafia hackers should then<br />
       be able to find those secret commands too.</p>
<p>       Don’t trust your harddisk.  Encrypt all your data.</p>
<p>       Of course this shifts the trust to the computing system, the  CPU,  and<br />
       so  on.   I  guess  there  are also &#8220;traps&#8221; in the CPU and, in fact, in<br />
       every sufficiently advanced mass-marketed chip.   Wealthy  nations  can<br />
       find those.  Therefore these are mainly used for criminal investigation<br />
       and &#8220;control of public dissent&#8221;.</p>
<p>       People should better think of their  computing  devices  as  facilities<br />
       lended by the DHS.</p>
<p>IMPORTANT WARNING &#8212; READ CAREFULLY<br />
       The author, the maintainers or the contributors of this package can NOT<br />
       be held responsible in any way if wipe destroys  something  you  didn’t<br />
       want  it  to destroy.  Let’s make this very clear. I want you to assume<br />
       that this is a nasty program that will wipe out  parts  of  your  files<br />
       that  you  didn’t want it to wipe. So whatever happens after you launch<br />
       wipe is your entire responsiblity.  In particular,  no  one  guarantees<br />
       that wipe will conform to the specifications given in this manual page.</p>
<p>       Similarly, we cannot guarantee that wipe will actually erase  data,  or<br />
       that  wiped  data  is not recoverable by advanced means.  So if nasties<br />
       get your secrets because you sold a wiped harddisk to someone you don’t<br />
       know, well, too bad for you.</p>
<p>       The  best way to sanitize a storage medium is to subject it to tempera‐<br />
       tures exceeding 1500K.  As a cheap alternative, you might use  wipe  at<br />
       your  own  risk.  Be  aware that it is very difficult to assess whether<br />
       running wipe on a given file will actually wipe it &#8212; it depends on  an<br />
       awful  lot  of  factors,  such  as  :  the type of file system the file<br />
       resides on (in particular, whether the file system is a journaling  one<br />
       or not), the type of storage medium used, and the least significant bit<br />
       of the phase of the moon.</p>
<p>       Wiping over NFS or over a journalling filesystem (ReiserFS  etc.)  will<br />
       most probably not work.</p>
<p>       Therefore I strongly recommend to call wipe directly on the correspond‐<br />
       ing block device with the  appropriate  options.  However  THIS  IS  AN<br />
       EXTREMELY  DANGEROUS  THING TO DO.  Be sure to be sober. Give the right<br />
       options. In particular : don’t wipe a  whole  harddisk  (eg.  wipe  -kD<br />
       /dev/hda  is  bad) since this will destroy your master boot record. Bad<br />
       idea. Prefer wiping partitions (eg. wipe -kD /dev/hda2) is  good,  pro‐<br />
       vided, of course, that you have backed up all necessary data.<br />
(&#8230;)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Von: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.butschek.de/?p=434#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Danke für den Tipp. Ich habe in deinem Kommentar die Verlinkung zur Manpage gleich noch aufgenommen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danke für den Tipp. Ich habe in deinem Kommentar die Verlinkung zur Manpage gleich noch aufgenommen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Von: linuxnetzer</title>
		<link>http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/comment-page-1/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>linuxnetzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.butschek.de/?p=434#comment-48</guid>
		<description>Wer sich für das Thema interessiert, der sollte sich auch wipe ansehen (wipe - securely erase files from magnetic media). Die &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.butschek.de/man/wipe&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Manpage von wipe&lt;/a&gt; ist darüberhinaus richtig lesenswert. Hier steht einiges über die Hintergründe des Löschens und wiederherstellen von Daten.
Gruß,
linuxnetzer (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.linuxnetz.wordpress.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.linuxnetz.wordpress.com&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wer sich für das Thema interessiert, der sollte sich auch wipe ansehen (wipe &#8211; securely erase files from magnetic media). Die <a href="http://www.butschek.de/man/wipe" rel="nofollow">Manpage von wipe</a> ist darüberhinaus richtig lesenswert. Hier steht einiges über die Hintergründe des Löschens und wiederherstellen von Daten.<br />
Gruß,<br />
linuxnetzer (<a href="http://www.linuxnetz.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.linuxnetz.wordpress.com</a>)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Von: markuman</title>
		<link>http://www.butschek.de/2009/05/shred/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>markuman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 09:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.butschek.de/?p=434#comment-39</guid>
		<description>sehr aufschlussreich :-)
danke!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sehr aufschlussreich <img src='http://www.butschek.de/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
danke!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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